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Old 01-02-2005, 07:52 AM   #1
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Default Damage cards and you - how to maximize your weapon performance

Note: This might be outdated as new cards aren't covered. Please PM me for comments/suggestions.

Many people seens to wonder what cards they should put on their weapons. This topic will try to cover the basics of carding a weapon with damage increase cards such as Hydra (+20% dmg to demi-humans), skeleton worker (+15% dmg to medium sized monsters, +5 atk) and many others.

The first step to know how to make a good weapon, you must know what you are fighting against. RO Empire has a big list of monsters you can use to find out their attributes. You must pay attention to their race,element property and size.

Second, you must know what each card does. ROE card database.


Note: Players (non baby) are medium demi-humans. Their element property is Normal lvl 1, unless they are using an elemental armor. (see final note).

What you must know about damage increase cards is how they work when combined with each other. Lets look what we have:

1) Race damage increase cards: Cards that increase the damage based on the race of the monster. Hydra cards, Caramel cards, etc.

2) Size damage increase cards: Cards that increase the damage based on the size of the monster. Skeleton worker, Desert wolf card and Minorous cards.

3) Element damage increase cards: Cards that increase the damage based on the element of the monster. Vadon cards, Drainliar cards, etc.

If you put cards of the same type on a weapon, they will add. For example 3 hydra cards on a Saber will add 100%+20%+20%+20% = 160% dmg against demi-humans. Or 1+0.2+0.2+0.2 = 1.6.

However if you put cards of diferent types, they will multiply. Like 2 hydras and 1 skeleton worker.
(1+0.2+0.2) x (1+0.15) = 1.4 x 1.15 = 1.61 (or 161%) vs medium sized demi-humans, plus the +5 atk from the Skeleton Worker card.

Lets imagine a Pike (most used knight weapon) against High Orcs.

A quad hydra or a quad vadon would be like:
1+0.2+0.2+0.2+0.2 = 1.8 (180% dmg)

A double hydra double vadon:
1.4*1.4 = 1.96 (196% dmg) (good combo, becomes the best one at 100+ STR)

A double hydra double minorous:
1.4*1.3 = 1.82 (182% damage, plus +10 atk from the mino cards)

A triple hydra vadon:
1.6*1.2 = 1.92 (192% dmg)

A triple hydra minorous:
1.6*1.15 = 1.84 (184% dmg, plus +5 atk from mino card).

Double hydra vadon minorous:
1.4*1.2*1.15 = 1.932 (193% damage, plus +5 atk from mino card). (best combo at <100 str, thanks to the little +5 atk)

You make custom weapons to use on a special occasion, for example PvP (where a combo of Hydra and Skeleton Worker cards work better than just a weapon full of hydra cards) and MvP. It is recomended only to combo cards on weapons with 3 or 4 slots.

This stat calc helps a lot when finding the best card set for your weapon.


Final note: On PvP the best combo for four slotted weapons is a Double Bloody Double Bonned (2 hydras, 2 skel worker) due the +5 atk from skel worker card. Of course this only applies to non-baby chars.

Obs.:
Baby players are small sized.
Normal players are medium sized.
Knights/Crusadwers/Lord Knights/Paladins on pecos are also medium sized regardless of rumors you might have read. Up to date there was no chances in kRO regarding mounted characters size therefore these rumors have no proof behind them.
A baby Knight/Crusader on a peco still small size.
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Old 01-02-2005, 01:14 PM   #2
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nicely done
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Old 06-06-2005, 09:03 AM   #3
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Definitely needs a sticky AND a mention in the list of guides.

It's a simple topic, but most people don't appreciate the "alchemy" of card-combining...
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Old 06-09-2005, 05:29 PM   #4
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can you tell me y u guys prefer pikes? The atk is only 60. Kinda weak isnt it?
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Old 06-09-2005, 11:16 PM   #5
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why use pike...

1. cheaper to buy

2. easier to get

3. easier to make to +10 (really i'm not kidding)

4. u wont feel lost if the pike broken during upgrade... got to many pike... but if use lance or other type u will cry a lot...

5. got 4 slot.. more card.. more damage...

6. can use shield ---> def wise + thara card = good choice

that is my answer to your question. but other people have their own choice. u will know how hard to get some thing after your version going to be 8 up version.
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Old 06-10-2005, 02:46 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silentsonata
can you tell me y u guys prefer pikes? The atk is only 60. Kinda weak isnt it?
Pike is one handed and has 4 slots. Other spears might be stronger but you cannot use a shield with them.

Vit knights usually don't sacrifice defence for a more damage and besides once your STR is higher enough, the damage from a pike with 4 slots to a trident with only 3 is rather small. However a shield with a -30% damage card is a big diference.
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Old 07-11-2005, 06:10 AM   #7
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Wow nicely done!!
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Old 08-05-2005, 02:56 PM   #8
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one handed? i think ill get one and kill GG =p
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Old 08-05-2005, 03:28 PM   #9
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Hello!!!

I want to ask the weapon for agility crusader with 2hand spear.
What should I fill in my +7 Trident[3]?
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Old 08-07-2005, 07:54 PM   #10
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I made this guide so you would know how to card a weapon yourself. I'm not answering questions like this.

Maybe I made it too hard to understand since english is not my native language. Please feel free to give me tips of how to improve it.
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Old 08-20-2005, 11:51 PM   #11
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Omg Pike Is One Handed? Omfg :O Wicked, Ima Own High Orcs Now =)
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Old 08-23-2005, 02:42 AM   #12
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Quote:
Card Compounding is the act of combining cards in a weapon to achieve the
maximum possible damage to a specific enemy or enemy type. Let me explain.
Monsters have a certain size, race and element right? Lets take a Marina for
instance.

THARA FROG
Element/Race HP ATK DEF/MDEF Base/Job EXP Level Size
Water 2/Fish 1992 105~127Water 8/12 219/138 22 Medium

Ok... We all know that this monster's weakness is the Wind Element (for those
of you who dont know. please refer to the Elemental Weaknesses Chart in the
Appendix) so the first thing that goes to our mind is to get a Wind Elemental
Weapon to kill this monster. Don't get me wrong, using elemtntal weapons
against monsters are effective, but to really achieve the highest attack you
must also consider the monsters RACE and SIZE. Are you starting to the picture?
Well Let me try to explain things in simpler terms.

Lets try picking out cards from the list above to match with the THARA FROG

1. Drainliar Card - since the THARA FROG is of the WATER Element
2. Skeleton Worker Card - because the THARA is Medium Sized
3. Flora Card - because the THARA is a FISH race

The common idea would be to make a quad compounded weapon against monsters.
Let's use the Pike as the weapon of choice, since most knights nowadays are
using pike as their main weapon. Most people think that making a Quad Saharic
Pike(Drainliar Card) or using a Wind Elemental Pike is the weapon that can
achieve the highest possible damage to against a THARA FROG for example. This
is not true Let's examine theses weapons mathematically shall we?

Let's ignore the ATK damage of a pike and see how much each of these weapons
affect the damage of a pike.

QUad Saharic Pike - adding 4 Drainliar Cards will increase ATK of the pike by
80%
Wind Pike - Since the THARA FROG is of Water Element lvl 2 the wind property
will add X% more ATK to the pike

In these weapons we only consider 1 aspect of the enemy.. Remember an enemy
has 3 different types: Namely, Size, Race and Element. If you take a look at
the variations of cards available for weapons you will notice that there are
different cards that enable a weapon to do more damage on Size, Race and
Element of a monster. You might be wondering how these cards will increase the
damage of the pike since they all do 20% increase's. Well, i'll let you in to a
little secret... The game was programed to treat each unique card slotted in a
weapon as it's own damage modifier. Ok ok, what does this mean in simpler
terms? (;O_o) Let me illustrate this first so you can understand better.

Ok, now it's time to introduce you to some new terms of card compounding. A
weapon can be compounded into different ratios depending on the number of
slots. Since we are concentrating on the pike, it has 4 slots at max. I will
now introduce the different ratios of compounding for 4 slot weapons. Namely
4:0 Compounding, 3:1 Compounding, 2:2 Compounding, and 2:1:1 Compounding. Let
me explain.


4:0 Compounding is like your average Quad Compounded Weapons like the Quad
Saharic Pike that we used earlier.

3:1 Compounding is a weapon which has 3 of the same card and another different
card compounded into it. A very good example of this weapon would be the
controversial Triple Bloody Boned pike, which is rumored to have more
effectivity in PvP / WoE; I'll explain more about this later on.

2:2 Compounding is just like the 3:1 Compounding but there are 2 sets of
dirfferent cards that are compounded to the weapon, and example would be a
Double Bloody Double Saharic Pike.

2:1:1 Compounding is the most popular type of compounding to date and is
capable of maximizing the users damage output on a single enemy, this type of
compounding is most commonly used against MVP's where you want to do as much
damage as possible. An example of this type of compouding would be a Double
Insectiside Flammable Titan Pike for Golden Thief Bug.


Lets consider the Thara Frog as our monster again. Now lets try to make
different compounded pikes to deal with this monster.

4:0 Compounding : Quad Saharic Pike - 4 Drainliar Cards
3:1 Compounding : Triple Saharic Fisher Pike - 3 Drainliar Cards, 1 Flora Card
2:2 Compounding : Double Saharic Double Fisher Pike - 2 Drainliar Cards, 2
Flora Cards
2:1:1 Compounding: Double Saharic Fisher Boned Pike - 2 Drainliar Cards, 1
Flora Card, 1 Skel Worker Card

Lets try to see the difference in damage between these pikes shall we?

4:0 Compounding : 1 + 4 X 20% = 1.8 increase in pike damage
3:1 Compounding : 1 + 3 X 20% = 1.6 ; 1.6 X 20% = 0.96 + 1.6 = 1.92 increase
in pike damage
2:2 Compounding : 1 + 2 X 20% = 1.4 ; 1.4 X 40% = 0.56 + 1.4 = 1.96 increase
in pike damage
2:1:1 Compounding: 1 + 2 X 20% = 1.4 ; 1.4 X 20% = 0.28 + 1.4 = 1.68 ; 1.68 X
20% = 0.336 + 1.68 = 2.016 increase in pike damage

Ok let me explain how i came up with these formula's. See, the game treats
each card that is compounded on a weapon as a unique card so when the time
comes to compute for the final damage of your attack this is what happens:
First, the game computes for what normal damage you are supposed to do without
cards on the pike, let us use the variable X for this normal damage. Then it
takes the first unique card like a Drainliar Card for example and takes Y * 20%
of X where Y is the number of drainliar cards that is slotted on the pike. Now
the game will store this new damage to X again and it will look for more cards
that are slotted on to the pike and repeat the same process. So having more
cards that do more damage to the different types of a monster will do more
damage than by just considering 1 type of the monster. In simpler terms, the
game increases the damage a weapon will do if more damage modifier cards are
slotted inside it and since there are only 3 unique attributes to each monster
namely; Race, Size and Element finding cards that modify the damage to the 3
attributes and slotting it into one weapon will do the most damage to that
specific monster.
Not mine...its Maruko from pRO's guide...
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Old 09-01-2005, 04:47 PM   #13
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How about those sin with 2 dagger with 3 slot each. How the formula being count?

Right hand card effect + Left hand card effect?
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Old 09-01-2005, 04:55 PM   #14
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Dual held is kinda confusing. I never went that far to actually understand how it works. All I know is that the off-hand weapon property (the only you hold in the left hand) is applied to the total damage of the right hand. For example if you hold a elemental weapon on the left hand and a carded weapon on the right, you will have a elemental carded damage.

I belive that the left hand cards combo will effect the right hand damage but I'm not sure, I've never made a sin.
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Old 10-23-2005, 05:54 PM   #15
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pikes... now i need to know its 2hand sword counterpart - the katana...

but i find this thread really helpful. i once thought that quad-ding hydras would be best...

now i'll add up to sleepless nights figuring ways to over-power-up my +10 katana[4]. still can't figure out which cards to fit in to it...
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Old 11-01-2005, 12:10 PM   #16
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Default Plz, help me!


Itīs a amazing post you have done here, but can you help me with some doubts?

You focus kinghts and ther pikes, but I am a crusader grand cross, so I was asking my which weapon can I use to compounding. I thought 3 weapons:

Blade [4], level 1, ATK 53 (iit looks like the katana of the one handed swords)
Saber [3], level 3, ATK 115
Haedegun [2], level 3, ATK 120, INT + 3 (Itīs the most used sword of mine, I have a set of elemental haedeguns.) The bonus for INT looks too atractive for GC.

My options of card are these:


Hidra Card: Add 20 % more damage on Demi-Human monsters
Skell Worker Card: Add 15 % more damage on Medium Monsters.
ATK + 5

My target is woe.

I was think if i make a combo of Hidra e Skell and put that in my haedegun or if I use a blade (like a pike) or use a saber.

Can you tell me What the best swordie option and the bests combos for then?
And for leveling up in GH with grand cross?

Thanks.
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Old 11-01-2005, 12:29 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcvb00

It´s a amazing post you have done here, but can you help me with some doubts?

You focus kinghts and ther pikes, but I am a crusader grand cross, so I was asking my which weapon can I use to compounding. I thought 3 weapons:

Blade [4], level 1, ATK 53 (iit looks like the katana of the one handed swords)
Saber [3], level 3, ATK 115
Haedegun [2], level 3, ATK 120, INT + 3 (It´s the most used sword of mine, I have a set of elemental haedeguns.) The bonus for INT looks too atractive for GC.

My options of card are these:


Hidra Card: Add 20 % more damage on Demi-Human monsters
Skell Worker Card: Add 15 % more damage on Medium Monsters.
ATK + 5

My target is woe.

I was think if i make a combo of Hidra e Skell and put that in my haedegun or if I use a blade (like a pike) or use a saber.

Can you tell me What the best swordie option and the bests combos for then?
And for leveling up in GH with grand cross?

Thanks.
Well you see, my guide won't help you because Grand Cross is a magic damage (not physical/magical like some people think).

Just like a hydra card won't increase the damage of a SG from a wizard, those cards won't increase the damage of GC.

What GC does is to take the atk from your weapon, add your matk and turn everything into magic damage.

The best weapon for a GC crusader is one with a high atk. A double hurricane haedonggun because the 3 int can help you get a better matk. Some crusaders even use a hurricane Poleaxe.

What you must have in mind if that you need a weapon with a high atk and if possible put as many andre cards in it to increase it's atk.

Edit: there is a sticky on the Crusader section that explains GC. Go check it.
http://www.roempire.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39942
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Old 11-01-2005, 02:12 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Henrike~
Dual held is kinda confusing. I never went that far to actually understand how it works. All I know is that the off-hand weapon property (the only you hold in the left hand) is applied to the total damage of the right hand. For example if you hold a elemental weapon on the left hand and a carded weapon on the right, you will have a elemental carded damage.

I belive that the left hand cards combo will effect the right hand damage but I'm not sure, I've never made a sin.
Okay, here's my input based on my experiences as a dual daggersin:

Basically all cards affect you, the player. Now, by default the main hand (right hand) of your character is your "default" attacking weapon. Hence, all skills and card effects are transferred to the right hand.

The main exception to this rule would be weapon effects; apparently inherent abilities (like auto-casting and Ice Pick's DEF-based ATK) affect both the off-hand and the main hand, regardless of the weapons' position. My guess is that this is because the weapons' effects would apply on a "per hit" basis, which means that each effect would affect both weapons (kinda confusing, eh? I know >.< ).

If I remember correctly, someone mentioned to me that the auto-casting doesn't overlap (try equipping Fireblend and Ice Falchion if ever you make a DD Sin in an official RO server; in pservers they often have FBolt & CBolt hitting at the same time, but in official servers I heard that it wouldn't be possible ).

Anyway, regardless, we're here about card effects, not weapon effects.

When you equip a Triple Bloody Gladius and a Quadruple Bloody Main Gauche you get:

1.2 + 1.2 + 1.2 + 1.2 + 1.2 + 1.2 + 1.2 = 2.4 or 240% damage

Simplified this would be:

1.0 + 0.2 * 7 = 1.0 + 1.4 = 2.4

When fighting in PvP the best combo would usually be Triple Boned Gladius & Quadruple Bloody Main Gauche:

(1.0 + 0.2 * 4) * (1.0 + 0.15 * 3) = 1.8 * 1.45 = 2.61 or 261% damage (and +15 ATK)

- - - - -

For those of you rich enough to try this (and have around 100 STR), compare the difference between +10 Double Bloody Double Boned Pike and +10 Double Boned Double Bloody Pike. For those who depend on calcs, you should notice that there is absolutely no difference in damage regardless of position.

The same applies to dual wielding; the following weapons all have the same 261% damage modifier:

Triple Boned Gladius, Quadruple Bloody MG
Double Boned Bloody Gladius, Triple Bloody Boned MG
Boned Double Bloody Gladius, Double Bloody Double Boned MG
Triple Bloody Gladius, Triple Boned Bloody MG

Why 3 Boned, 4 Bloody? Why not the other way around? Well, if you notice:

( 1.0 + 0.2 * 3 ) * ( 1.0 + 0.15 * 4 ) = 1.6 * 1.6 = 2.56 or 256% damage (+20 ATK)

Now 5 ATK might be better when you have lower than 100 STR, but when you are a DD Sin, the standard is usually 100 ~ 110 STR, and that means that 5% more damage would be more significant.

- - - - -

The main advantage that DD Sins have over other classes would be the ability to wield so many card modifiers, as well as Double Attack and the speed of the dagger class... giving them the highest modifier for ANY CLASS, and thus, the deadliest when it comes to non-critical, no-skill attacks...

...and why they're considered the fastest levelling type among the Sin builds.

Wouldn't they suffer from the size penalty, since they use Daggers? Yes, but mind you that size penalties only applies to weapons; with a high enough base ATK (which is affected primarily by STR), the size penalties are very negligible.

- - - - -

Now we go to MVPing, which originally was limited to low DEF MVPs (that is, until the Ice Pick was introduced ). Eddga was a favorite pick, due to his low DEF, low Hit requirement, and *ahem* easy mob (GTB has an easier mob, but its DEF is much higher).

What would be the best weapon for Eddga?

Well, for Crusaders it would be either the Ice Lance or the Double Flammable Clamorous Trident (using a Clamorous Flammable Titan Trident would have only a very minute advantage, and only because of the +5 ATK) + Frost Weapon (from Sage). For AGI Knights it would be the Ice Claymore or the Double Flammable Clamorous Bastard Sword + Frost Weapon.

For the Dual Daggersin, however, since this class has so many slots available, they can easily go for any of the following for "best anti-Eddga equips":

* Ice Damascus + Double Flammable Double Clamorous MG
* Triple Titan Gladius + Double Flammable Double Clamorous MG + Enchant Poison or Frost Weapon
* Triple Clamorous Gladius + Double Flammable Double Titan MG + Enchant Poison or Frost Weapon

The third one is perhaps the most expensive BUT has the best modifier:

175% elemental bonus (Frost Weapon), 160% from Goblin Cards, 140% from Vadon Cards, and 130% from Minorous Cards.

Total modifier: 509.6% damage

[NOTE: Notice that Goblin Cards (racial) and Vadon Cards (elemental) both have 20% modifiers. This means that you can switch between the two anytime (so the Triple Clamorous Gladius + Double Flammable Double Titan MG has the same effect as the Triple Flammable Gladius + Double Clamorous Double Titan MG).]

How about the size penalties? Well, remember that I mentioned that it only affects the weapon ATK only. So for a DD Sin who has 110 STR, 50 DEX and 1 LUK, a Triple Clamorous Gladius and a Double Flammable Double Titan MG:

base ATK = STR + floor(STR/10)^2 + DEX/5 + LUK/5 + Impositio + ATK Cards
base ATK = 110 + floor (110/10)^2 + 50/5 + 1/5 + 5 = 246.2 ATK

weapon ATK = random(DEX * (0.8 + 0.2 * weapon level), weapon's ATK) * size penalty
weapon ATK = random(50 * (0.8 + 0.2 * 3), 105) * 0.5 = 35 ~ 52.5 ATK

As you can see, the reason why DD Sins still retain so much power in spite of their reliance to daggers is because the ATK they gain from weapons is not as large as the ATK they gain from stats (although the ATK from weapons is still significant enough; 50 ATK is still 50 ATK more than going bare-fisted).

So why not eight card slots instead of seven? Well, it's possible... I mean when going against Eddga you could do more with two pairs of +10 Double Clamorous Flammable Titan MGs which, with Frost Weapon, you could have a monstrous 582.4% damage modifier. However, due to the low ATK of the Main Gauche (which, due to size penalties, would be reduced to 21.5), this means that you have a smaller damage range; in fact, as you can see, the MG is almost 10 ATK behind the minimum weapon ATK of the Gladius, and 31 ATK less than the maximum weapon ATK of the Gladius.

In effect, due to the large ATK gap between the two weapons, the Gladius still does better than the MG, even if the MG has a much higher modifier.

[note that the iRO dual calc does its calculations differently, and appears to have a modifier that's lower than the actual modifier... hence, it does lower damage than it should]

- - - - -

Sorry if it got too long, the subject on dual wielding is a bit complex
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Old 11-04-2005, 04:51 AM   #19
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Smile

Thanks for the help about the kind of the GCīs damage. I had read that post before but didnīt have the sure about the kind of damage. Iīm lucky because I always looked for equips wich give Mdef bonus.

Now Iīm creating a agi based crusader and I will use a Blade + 10 with 3 hidras, 2 minouros. Thanks to your post.

Now, for WOE, which is the best, a blade + 10 with 2 hidras, 1 Skeleton Worker and 1 Golem (sword 1) or a blade + 10 with 2 hidras and 2 Skeleton Worker (sword 2)?

I was thinking about the sword 1 because of the potions of the Alchemists.

Ps: the crusader will have aspd 182 with buffs.
Tell me please that the damage of the Holy Cross is fisical at least, I really donīt apreciate Knights.

Thanks for the help
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Old 11-04-2005, 08:38 AM   #20
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Only use a golen card if you are really worried about weapon breaking.

Holy Cross damage is 100% physical.

I suggest toying a bit with the calc linked in the first post and try both the +10 blade[4] and a +7~+9 Saber[3]. The extra atk from the Saber may cover the lack of one slot.
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Old 02-26-2006, 09:09 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Henrike~
Final note: On PvP the best combo for four slotted weapons is a Triple Bloody Bonned (3 hydras, 1 skel worker). Of course this only applies to non-baby chars
.
am i reading this right or this like a misleading statement... could i could of sworn everyone and the calculator is stating that a double bloody and double boned seems to exert a higher dmg output.
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Old 02-27-2006, 02:53 PM   #22
~Henrike~
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I've checked the calcs and noticed that what you said is correct.

The 2x2 combo gives a better damage than a 3x1, even though the 3x1 has a 2% better damage rate. I belive that the 2x2 wins because of the aditional 5 atk.

I've also noticed that with higher str, the damage diference between both combos is reduced and at 110 str there seens to be no diference at all. I'm guessing that a str above 120 will benefit more from a 3x1 than a 2x2. I'm editing my post assuming that the majority of users will have 110 or less str.

Thanks for pointing that out.
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Old 02-27-2006, 04:51 PM   #23
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great sticky. I learned a lot. Despite me being a 98 knight lol.

off topic: Henrike, english is not ur native language??? O_o it's perfectly fine lol.
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Old 03-17-2006, 05:57 AM   #24
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Post WOW!

This is a very nice post...nicely done...and it is greatly apprciated by RO players.....well aniwase i want you guys to know that this is tight..well aniwase im still confused about cards you know.like how should i eqquip myself.....basically can you tell me where to get good cards for a knight and how i should use them...plus wha about def cards!
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Old 04-04-2006, 04:43 AM   #25
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owl baron clip(level 1 autocast lex aeterna) and violy clip(lvl 1 autocast frost joke), can also be helpful in compliment to the weapon cards of the knight.
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